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Daeruin wrote:
To my mind, the key phrase in that scripture is “my law.” Are the church’s rules the same thing as God’s law? How many of the church’s rules do you have to follow to get into heaven? Are there any rules that are not requirements for getting into heaven? Even for rules that may be required, obviously we all fall short. How much can we fall short and still get in? Is it enough if you continue to try?What would you characterize then as a “church rule” and seperate from God’s law?
SilentDawning wrote:I felt slightly depressed when I read what John wrote. Is it true? That they see us kind of like the 3rd that was cast out? I don’t think so, programmatically, as when I was HPGL they always were after me to chase after the inactive people. I eventually developed an attitude they were irretreivable since after visiting over 100 homes, they only people who came back were the ones who decided to on their own, and independent of any reactivation efforts we made.
I believed that we need to have good programs in place so when people to return to church, they have a positive experience.
However, I do believe the church in general (its members in general) are after short term results. They want to report at a meeting they talked to someone and “challenged” them to be active, addressed a concern, got someone out, or just plain did something to help someone less active. They are so busy they don’t have time to invest in long-term relationships unless they truly click with someone.
So, while I think the GA’s do in fact care about us, the culture puts us on the back burner since rarely does anyone see activity or improvement in their metrics when they go after people who have testimony or other commitment issues.
Silent Dawning, I had a similiar experience in my ward. I went out and visited with several hundred less active single adults in my ward last summer and fall. Out of the hundreds i visited in person and tried to reactivate, only 3 came back. One has since become inactive again. And to also refer to what Dark Jedi wrote i believe…many of the interactions were very abrupt and full of conflict. I was able to get the Single Adult Rep to go out with me a few times and the Elder and Sister Missionaries on several different occasions. It always amazed me how impressed the members of the Ward were with my efforts. Like they couldnt understand what my reasoning was almost. I kept getting asked “did someone
assignyou this job?” Which of course, the answer was no. What really frustrated me though was that every 2 weeks i would type up a report of my efforts and relay that information to the Bishopric. They were happy that i was doing their workas they jokingly said, and i was told it would be discussed in the High Priests meeting i believe…but would you believe they did NOTHING with my work. No one went back out and talked to the people that told me they wanted their records removed, no one followed up with the members that wanted to talk to their Home or Visiting Teacher, nothing was done. I got so fed up that i quit. What was the point in gathering all this information if no one cared to followup? But if a FAMILY was possibly interested in coming back the Bishop bent over backwards to try to activate them again. It just reinforced my belief that families are valued more than single adults. And many single adults in my ward share that opinion. Orson wrote:wornoutsneakers wrote:Will i be deemed unworthy if i stay in a church where I’m not following all the rules?
I have my own cause & effect view of “the rules.” To me rules are meant to approximate the results that a heart in the right place would naturally bring. The idea being if we act in a “Godly” way then eventually it will take root and we will become a Godly person. The real focus to me should be becoming a Godly person. The primary trait of God is love, then there are many others including intelligence, but the key is they all work harmoniously. Jesus was the perfect example, I believe he was showing us a model when he wasn’t as concerned with the letter of the law as the pharisees. The way I read he was trying to demonstrate the goal of
becomingGodly. Hanging sweet fruit on a sour tree will only preserve an image for so long, the real focus should be on helping the tree reach its full potential – where it spontaneously produces good fruit on its own. (No specific rules would then be needed.) But what about belonging to a church that requires me to believe in those things to be a member? If i say i am a member, but yet dont follow all the rules, then by rights i should be punished for not practicing what i preach. That is being hypocritical. Doc and Cov 41:5—“He that receiveth my law and doeth it, the same is my disciple; and he that saith he receiveth it and doeth it not, the same is not my disciple, and shall be cast out from among you”..plus numerous mentions in the Bible.
On Own Now wrote:
as an Atheist, I hope you and I are both dead wrong about the afterlife. I’d be very pleased to wake up on the other side of the veil and find that the Mormon concept was right. I’d much prefer to inhabit the Terrestrial Kingdom than to either live in darkness or be wiped from existence.
nibbler wrote:
Remaining within the context of the three degrees of glory as taught by the church: Often I’ve felt like the three degrees of glory are presented as things that require a certain level of righteousness in order to obtain but that’s the way celestial life is often presented with any religion. I have this mental image of a sign at an amusement park, you must be at least this righteous to ride.
I view it a
bitdifferently. Sort of similar to what you say, I think we’ll ultimately end up where we want to be, if I want to inherit the celestial kingdom ultimately I will. That said I admit that if I want something that implies I’m actively working towards it. Living in the celestial kingdom appears to entail a lot of work, some people may look at that and decide it’s simply not for them. In that scenario they don’t attain the celestial kingdom because they didn’t wantto be there, not because someone has judged them unworthy of being there… if that makes sense. That is very close to what i think too Nibbler. Just that for those that are not members of the church may not call it by those names. To be honest, the three degrees of glory has to be some of the more difficult doctrine for me to accept and believe in. I have actually sat in Sacrament and looked around me and thought
do all of these people really believe everything?But of course i cant vocally say that out loud…. I used to feel the same way about being lds after i joined the church almost 3 yrs ago. I was going thru an interesting life transition, at the time i was living with extended family. I remember staying in my room to read my scriptures or anything church related for fear i would have to talk about what i was reading. I used to hurry out the door on Sundays when i was leaving for church, for fear i would have a confrontation with a family member. Since this is the first church i have ever belonged to, i felt awkward asking my employer for Sundays off right after i met the missionaries so i could go to church. I felt pressured from family, friends, and co workers. I was always afraid once someone would find out i was a Mormon that i would be forced to defend my new found faith or explain some doctrine that i would flub up on. I would learn my fears were unfounded. My family was interested in my new faith but they were not antagonistic about it. Sure my friends and co workers would roll their eyes when i would say i was going to church or explain i couldnt do something with them for various reasons…but i didnt suffer any lasting negative effects from it. Im sure your circumstances are different because of the controversey of Prop 8 and the emotions around it, but just remember who you are. I think the most important part of having faith, what ever it is, is that your comfortable with it. Dont be ashamed. Stay true to what you feel comfortable with and believe. Sometimes the biggest hurdle to overcome when you feel insecure about something is to realize that maybe everyone else isnt thinking about it as much as you are! :think: I remember around that time i started to become real dissatisfied with the church. There wasnt a single adult program and i left briefly for several months. Then the local leaders started one. It hasnt really went anywhere (you have to have single adults to begin with). But it was nice that they tried. I remember telling my family that single adults must be the biggest group that have left the church. When i started researching it last Fall, i found out that out of 350 single adults in our ward…only about 20 are active. Mostly widows and single moms. It seems that the biggest group of inactive adults are men. Which is very disheartening. And that was just the info for my ward. It didnt include ysa or married people. I dont know if a minority or not on this issue, but as a woman i really dont want women to have the Priesthood. In reference to what some of OON said…i do see a few callings that women could hold (such as ward clerk, i dont understand why not). But the fact that men have the Priesthood was one of the reasons why i joined the church. Along with some other things, it made perfect sense and felt right. I dont believe that equality is the same thing as equity (hope i got that right ). Just because i cant do something that i really want to do doesnt make it right. The Priesthood is one of the defining characteristics of our church and it wouldnt be same if just anyone could get it. Ilovechrist77 wrote:Wornoutsneakers, I have a friend who’s a convert to the church. He also used to believe saying the word “proud” was bad when you were happy with someone or something. Over the last couple years with hearing Thomas S. Monson speak, he doesn’t believe it’s bad anymore when you use the word “proud” when you are happy with someone or something.
I didnt say in my post i thought the word proud was bad. I didnt pass any judgement. I said a speaker at my church said that. That speaker was actually quoting a GA i believe in his talk. I heard the speaker today say it and it jogged my memory from last month. Now that you bring it up though, i do think being grateful is better. Sortof goes in line with what DU said in his talk, which i really liked. Gratitude is something i actively need to work on.
SilentDawning wrote:I said it earlier — I think the church should engage in research about the experience of being a Mormon and let members share open concerns with our culture, our operations, and the extent to which the LDS experience actually increaess well-being. It should be publicized that they do these surveys or focus groups, with results shared, and plans made to improve the experience of being a Mormon.
I was going over this post and just wanted to say that i was polled about my opinion of the church after converting in 2011. I was sent an email about 3 mths or so after i was baptized asking me all sorts of questions. It came from church headquarters in SLC. I was asked about everything from how well the missionaries did on the lessons, what i thought of the bishopric, they even asked me if i were to leave the church what would be the reason why. To be honest, alot of the questions focused on members leaving. It really got me to thinking about the weaknesses of the church. It made me wonder…they must have a problem with members leaving high numbers if they are trying to figure out in advance what to address to stop it. Did anyone else know about this poll that was done a few years ago?
In William Walker’s talk about knowing our church history and family history, he used the word “proud”. Last month a member said in their talk that we should use the word “grateful” in place of “pride” or “proud”. Just jogged my memory….
