[wuwei]

I read this earlier today and I’ve been thinking about it. I really do agree. i think a lot of times I get really caught up in worrying about what someone’s motivation may or may not be for an act of kindness or whether they’re being fake or not. But in the end, whatver their moitivations, they’re doing good for other people and being generally nice.

Usually nicer than my grumpy introverted self is.

I’m not going to say that the ends justify the means, just that the means don’t negate the ends.

Sometimes I forget that.

[wuwei]

Oh, and On Own Now,

I really appreciate what you said about your mission. I’ll admit it’s a struggle because I look back on my mission and think about things I taught that I now think are completely untrue. But I guess I need to remember that when I was there I was still me. I still was trying my best to help prepare people for baptism, not just baptize. I didn’t hold back or purposefully mislead. So if I hadn’t been there, another missionary might have who wasn’t doing everything in good faith like I was. I guess I am too hard on myself sometimes. I was really doing the best I could with the knowledge I had at the time. I was trying to bring people close to Christ and help them be happier–not just baptize them.

[wuwei]

Thanks again everyone,

So I ended up having a talk with my mom about just about everything today. It wasn’t planned but we just got on a tangent and it led where it did. It turns out she and I are pretty similar. She just still is a bit afraid of exploring things. I could tell talking about it made her really uncomfortable but I guess I have to understand I’ve been hiding these feeling for 3-4 years. She’s been hiding hers for 30-40.

Funny enough, her eye-opening moment was when her grandfather passed away when she was younger. She felt that even though everyone would have said he had his chance in this life and was supposed to be in spirit prison or whatever that it all just seemed wrong to her. For me the final push into exploring things was having the same feelings at my grandfather’s passing last november.

She and I also both found out about JS and the hat from the South Park episode and both have bitter feelings about being told one thing all our lives only to find out that it’s not true and that the church still perpetuates the lie to this day.

Anyways, it was a really positive conversation. I think she still places more trust in the church rules that I would. Thinking that they are necessary and you have to set the bar somewhere. My view is that they can be useful but aren’t necessary and that one can be a good and moral person without them. But we really weren’t far off.

She’s been wanting to share some non-correlated church history with my brother to help prepare him for what he’ll hear on his mission but hasn’t figured out how yet. And her knowledge of it isn’t quite what mine has become. I don’t really think she needs to know what most of us here do unless she feels like looking herself. But there are things she feels he needs to know.

She also gave me some good advice about my marriage. Long after they were married my father had some mental health issues just explode that completely altered her life. Although he’s back to being a TBM (except attendance is hard due to mental health problems) she talked about how hurt she was after his breakdown because he was angry at God. He had a “I was doing all the right things, this shouldn’t have happened!” attitude. Like avoiding caffeine prevents psychotic episodes. Anyways, while he wanted nothing to do with God she said she felt so hurt because that wasn’t what she signed up for. We went overnight from perfect (on the outside, at least) mormon family to a very troubled one.

Without more specifics of my family, I can see how my wife could feel the same way. And this pertains to my other thread as well (New Father, New FC). But I think she’s more understanding.

As for my brother, I will encourage him to go on a mission. I think he’s at least as ready as half the missionaries i knew in the MTC were. And I hope I can help prepare him a little more. It’s good to know that my mom is understanding of my feelings at least. We ended talking about how the church has been a net good in our lives. I tried talking about how I’m trying to reframe my relationship with the church. She still feels like she can’t “make her own commandments”. I wanted to say “why not? that’s what JS did…” but I held my tongue. :silent: I just explained that in my experience if the spirit or your conscience seems to contradict what the church’s line is, go with the spirit or your conscience. The core of mormonism is that I can get understanding directly from God and don’t need anyone else. If God tells me one thing and TSM tells me another, I will choose God every time.

[wuwei]

mackay11 wrote:

I fully agree with that speculation and was one reason why I’d included the Plato quote.

I’m sure there must be some GA quotes from the archives that could be pieced together to support that perspective.

I’m also of the opinion that the less rigid the person’s moral framework the more admirable their positive achievements. There is sometimes scorn on Hinduism or Atheism which, to the ignorant observer appears to be ‘setting your own standards’ with the associated presumption that this makes their life easy. Quite the opposite. The challenge of setting a standard and sticking to it with only yourself to answer to is admirable, compared to a perception of a God that rewards or punishes based on ones obedience.

Quite literally the difference between being a child and an adult. As I child we need parents to set rules, enforce punishments, etc. As adults we have to be able to manage ourselves with much less outside influence.

It goes back to the being adults of God concept that’s mentioned on here from time to time. I think it’s a great principle. I’ve struggled as I’ve had to reevaluate my moral system as my faith has changed. And it does so much to boost my self-esteem to think that even without the threats of punishment from church or whatever I am still a good, moral person. It makes me feel good that that can come from inside me rather than just because it is forced on me.

[wuwei]

Thanks, everyone.

I felt a lot better after writing this. That happens a lot where I just need to get something off my chest and unfortunately there really isn’t anyone I can truly do that with in my not-internet life.

I remember reading your blog post before, Ray. It seemed good advice then and it seems like great advice now. It’s so different from what I was told before I left.

As everyone has pointed out, it’s his decision. I have to respect that. I went based on misguided impressions of what it would be like and I turned out OK. I’m still generally of the opinion that missions can be a very good thing. And if nothing else it will help my brother grow up–a lot. I think I’ll keep telling honest stories from my mission. I won’t say anything about my current faith crisis but I won’t hide so much of what I went through as a missionary. I was the first in my family. So no one really knew what to expect. But I can perhaps help build him up a bit before he serves by giving him examples of putting the spirit and your own conscience ahead of rigid obedience.

I think I need to be honest about my experience with him but not spin it as “you should really think twice because…” but instead as “you can still have a successful mission even if…”.

Ann, that questions haunts me in all my relationships. I feel like my parents, brothers, and wife all look to me to be some sort of spiritual leader because of my mission experience. I feel so uncomfortable because I’m not who they all think I am. It’s not that I’ve mislead them per se. Just that they form their own opinions and I don’t have the heart to correct them. And now when I look into my 3 week old son’s eyes I just wonder what I’m supposed to teach him hehe.

But at 3 weeks old there’s lots of time for him.

[wuwei]

Something I’ve found interesting as I’ve studied other religions is that although not prominent in Christianity, the idea of remembering one’s ancestors is fairly prevalent. I really like much of Confucius’ ideas on “filial piety” and the overall Chinese focus (pre-communism anyways) on ancestors.

We focus on them through doing genealogy and temple work for them. Even for those that don’t necessarily believe the temple is what the church says it is, I do feel something as I learn about my ancestors. Every single one of them had a harder life than I did. Every one of them struggled and toiled on earth for a time. The all had thoughts, feelings, desires, wants, passions. They all had families and raised children. And when I think about how many people have had to live on this earth just so that I could be here it’s incredibly humbling.

If the temple serves as nothing more than allowing me to remember one of those people that went before me for 2 hours then there is value in that.

I have recently been struggling with having my Mother-in-law staying with us to help with our new baby. She drives me absolutely insane. She also drives my wife insane. My wife and her don’t really get along all that well. Certainly not like I get along with my mom. But she loves her just because she is her mom. I’ve been trying to love her too just because she is the mother of the woman I love. If it wasn’t for her I wouldn’t have my wife. Regardless of my other opinions of her I owe her for that. And like it or not, my son is 1/4 her. 😯

I think that even in broken families one could respect their parents. They might not agree with them or get along with them or even talk to them all that often, but there is still something there.

I can certainly see how the idea of an eternal family would comfort someone from such a home. I know for me it’s humbling and comforting to know how many people have lived before me so that I can be here. And I know that, for the most part, they all desired their posterity to do well and be happy. So there’s a lot of people that have already passed on that lived their lives wanting me to be happy.

I personally believe I will see them again. I think that they like us remembering them. But even if I didn’t believe in such an afterlife, I think there’s always value in appreciating those that have gone before.

[wuwei]

AngryMormon wrote:

wuwei wrote:

One of the first testimonies, however, was a new sister who went on about how her siblings had left the church and how unhappy they were. She talk about how they “never say they’re unhappy but [she] can just see it in their eyes”. She went on about how sorry she felt for them etc, etc…. Ugh. I didn’t amen that one. I was pleasantly surprised that my wife made a comment to me after sacrament meeting about how judgmental she thought that was and she didn’t agree with that.

These are the type of testimonies/talks that I really dislike. Insulting/belittling/judgemental talks about non LDS individuals because they are not LDS always just bothers me.

I was surprised that it did not bother me more. It bothered me but I laughed it off and tried to enjoy the rest. In the past I would have assumed something was wrong with me because what she said is basically what the church teaches and I’d have thought something was wrong with me for not believing it. However, since I no longer believe that the church’s view outweighs mine, her crazy testimony (and others) have less power over me. I think that’s the key.

Something I’ve been pondering this weeks is the 11th article of faith.

I’m trying to remember from primary so it may not be exact:

We claim the privilege of worshiping almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, to worship how, where, or what they may.

Those in the church forget we can apply this to those in the church as well. And I think we that have differing views on the church could stand to remember to apply it to TBMs. Even if it’s not reciprocated.

In the past I would have stewed over it for the rest of the meeting. But I just remembered that it was her opinion and I didn’t have to agree if my conscience dictates something a bit different. I was just really surprised it bothered my wife enough that she spoke up. That’s what was unexpected.

[wuwei]

Sometimes i really wish i had the chutzpah… and I’d definitely have to make it a weekend my wife wasn’t there..

[wuwei]

SilentDawning wrote:

However, not to be too negative,I liked the kids testimony. I think next time I get asked to bear my testimony of JS I will say something like that. Or that “I know the church exists”.

Things i know that would make a good testimony….

I know this church is here. I know that the book of Mormon is truly a book that is published. I know joseph smith went into the woods at some point. I know that the bishop was called by the stake president’s executive secretary to come in for a meeting where he was asked to be bishop. I know that TSM is the true president of the church and the only one authorized to lead and guide its financial decisions made with our tithing money….

..or maybe not.

Too cynical? 😈

[wuwei]

I had an interesting experience today actually.

My wife (not tbm but much closer than I am) is Hispanic. I don’t remember how we got on the topic… some tv documentary i think… but she made a comment about her ancestors coming over the land bridge thousands of years ago. My very tbm brother looked puzzled and then said “but your ancestors were the book of Mormon people. The land bridge is just a theory.” She said “maybe, but that’s not what DNA and everything else says. Besides, why do you think I have Asian eyes?”

My brother’s whole world was shaken and I had nothing to do with it haha.

As for chichen itza… I know it was built too late, you know it was built too late, but that hasn’t stopped it from being the model for zarahemla in everything from paintings to the move “The Testaments”. I had been told my while life that places like that were probable book of Mormon sites. So I was open to it. After visiting it I just felt dark. So many people were sacrificed there….beautiful buildings though.

[wuwei]

I went to chicken itza once. I had people tell me how exciting it was to visit a Book of Mormon site. I was open to a spiritual experience…really hoping actually.

I was disappointed. Having felt the spirit in cathedrals, chapels, Japanese temples and shrines, and even Stonehenge, I have to say I felt none of that… it felt more like touring Auschwitz. Just my experience though.

I as well pondered asia independently as a possible alternative location. Though not deeply…I think the Malaysia theory is quite interesting. More plausible than anywhere found in the americas. But as was already said, that may have more to do with the americas’ dearth of evidence than an abundance of evidence for other theories. I long ago stopped caring where it was though. It’d be nice to know it wasnt inspired fiction though. That’s where I’m leaning. I believe that about half of the old testament too though….

[wuwei]

Honestly I don’t think Joseph Smith knew or understood everything he had. Like Ray I think that he hit on a huge, beautiful idea about our individual relationships with God. I think he was inspired and wrote inspired things, but I also think he might have attributed things to the wrong places (BoA and papyrii for example…)

I also have no problem accepting that whatever happened in the grove grew in grandiosity as time went on. We all tell fish stories. But no matter how big the fish in the story is it doesn’t take away from the fact that you caught a fish.

That fish Joseph caught was that we can all receive personal revelation, that the heavens were open, and oddly-enough, going to church wasn’t all that important.

The fact that the story has changed and grown and whatever might obscure the truth of what actually happened. But that doesn’t change the fact that great truths were revealed at that point in time. It’s just that we’ve all been taught in church about how perfect JS was and sing praises to him and put him right up there next to Jesus. Except that he was nowhere close to Jesus. He was soooo far from perfect.

As for the Life of Pi, I really like the book. So much more introspective spirituality that the movie that inspired me to start this thread. I still feel that whichever story is true, the lesson to be learned is the same. It’s just that one story is horrifying and the other makes an exciting movie. And even if the story with the animals was completely made up, it doesn’t change the fact that Pi survived one heck of an ordeal. The true story of his will to survive is at the core of it either way. And either way we learn about the good and bad of human nature. It’s basically all a huge metaphor for Pi’s internal struggle with his animal side. I already view plenty of scriptures as nothing more than metaphors and parables.

Jesus taught in parables all the time. Was the story of the good Samaritan real? Does it make the parable untrue if he didn’t? No, the lesson to be learned would be the same whether it really happened or not.

With the church, I think I have a hard time discounting all of it just because stories have changed. I guess it’s that, for me, at the core of mormonism are still the truths about my relationship with God. Other religions might have less crap surrounding their core, but is that core ultimately something I find more valuable to me than the core of mormonism? Well, if it was then I might be on another board besides StayLDS.

Not to say changing stories aren’t annoying. They are…But they just demonstrate even more how important it is to figure it out for yourself.

[wuwei]

Ann wrote:

Your fellowshipper reminds me of a Neal A. Maxwell quote: “Quiet sustained goodness is the order of heaven, not conspicuous but episodic busyness.”

Wise words, those.

Unfortunately It’s my experience that as far as fellowshipping goes, 5 minutes of being a busybody can undo months of quiet sustained goodness.

Perhaps I let the small things get to me too much…

[wuwei]

I don’t know that there was too much of a difference between Dan and Tom. I felt Dan was one bad bishop away from being Tom. Sad really. It’s why I fight my urge to tell the bishop how I really feel. Part of me feels it would make me feel better to not hide it. But it’s like playing a slot machine with what result you get. So I shut my mouth…

[wuwei]

I always love the “it works for those for whom it works, it doesn’t for those for whom it doesn’t” comments.

It’s true and there’s no rebuttal.

[Author]

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