[wuwei]

And I once heard a theory that the wise men were from the Book of Mormon peoples and didn’t know of Bethlehem and that’s why they showed up in Jerusalem first.

Really though, this has never troubled me. If Joseph Smith was smart enough or well-read enough to invent the book of Mormon then he must’ve known where Jesus was born–at least in my mind. So either he was ignorant like the church seems to teach and was inspired to write it or he was probably as puzzled as we are about why Alma says Jerusalem.

I go with the last explanation, personally.

…although maybe he was smart and conniving enough to put it in there so we’d buy his ignorance claims. Hm?

I’m not much for conspiracy theories though…

[wuwei]

When I was a missionary I felt there was an analogy to this. I do feel that I chose to come to earth. I don’t think I chose where. In the same manner I chose to serve a mission, I didn’t choose where.

I think that part of coming here was that we knew the level of suffering that would exist and that we would have to put up with it. But I think that God is suffering more than we are. He knows individual suffering and now he’s watching his creations(us) collectively suffer. But I think he knows, and we knew before this life, how many horrible things would go on on this earth. But he also knows that something much greater lies after and that the suffering here is not permanent. But I think that if he were to intervene to stop the suffering it would violate the laws of our “test” and it would be for naught. In this way I see God as subject to laws the same as us. I believe that the purpose of this life–the learning of how to use our free-agency–is such a glorious cause that God himself cannot violate it.

On a side: It’s ironic that the idea of a God that constantly would intervene to take away suffering and make everyone live in a utopia was basically what we are taught is “Satan’s plan”. Sometimes it sounds so much better, doesn’t it?

Personally I believe that we all understood this life would be replete with suffering in the pre-mortal world–as best we could anyways. Those who turned away and “rebelled” would be those who simply did not trust the Father that it would be worth it. Their problem was a lack of faith, a lack of willingness to endure suffering believing it would bring the blessing promised by the Father.

Back to my mission analogy, It was the hardest, worst 2 years I have ever endured. I fought with my companions, I struggled with extraneous doctrines taught by them. I struggled with mismanaged wards with very imperfect leaders. But for me, it was so worth it. It shattered my previous world view. It liberated me from the “church is perfect” idea where I was made to feel I was never good enough. It helped me realize that mormon cultural ideas shouldn’t be construed as doctrine simply because someone with a title said it once. It made me realize that mormons are absolutely not better than anyone else because there is more truth or god loves them more. It took me out of my middle class suburban surroundings and forced me to realize the worth of people I would have simply considered inferior at an earlier time in my life.

It was the catalyst for starting me on this journey to a greater understanding. It changed me in ways I didn’t think possible. I gained confidence, good study habits, better critical thinking skills, and a whole slew of other “blessings”.

All this while I was disobedient. I slept in, studied unapproved religious and philosophical books as much as the scriptures, listened to music I wasn’t supposed to, didn’t do any of the BS salesman stuff we were taught in meetings, had horrible numbers because I refused to lie unlike everyone else. And half my companions probably thought I was anti-mormon because I questioned every urban legend about 3 nephites or garments stopping bullets I ever heard… And yet somehow I came away with all of this good. The only casualty was the naïve testimony of my youth. And maybe some cracks in the testimonies of my companions…

Anyways, this analogy speaks to me in ways that are hard to explain in a forum. The idea that this life is hard. But it’s a finite time. And it’s only looking back when it’s over that we will realize what our experiences here have molded us to be. I believe I chose to come here. Not to my family per se, but to wherever God or the universe or the “crap-shoot” sent me. I believe at one time I had the faith in God to submit to whatever suffering this life had in store for me the same as I submitted to my mission call to a place I would never have chosen. But I learned to endure that 2 years and came out better. So I can try to learn to endure this life trusting that whatever suffering I endure, when I look back on this life, I will be grateful for the experiences gained and what I will have become. I can’t expect God to come here and take away that suffering for me any more than I could have expected my Dad to come knock doors for me on my mission or tell my companions off for me. The result would have made me a worse person, not better.

And on a little tangent:

And for those of us who are lucky enough to not be born in a place like Somalia I believe that we have an absolute duty to relieve suffering as best we can in such places. Heavenly Father may not intervene in literal “deus ex machina” style to take away suffering, but Jesus sure did while here on the earth. That’s why we’re taught to emulate Him. How the prevailing political attitudes of members (especially here in Utah) has shifted from a form of communism where excess was shared so everyone could live decently to libertarianism is beyond me. When I hear someone on the HC at church talking to a member of the Bishopric after sacrament meeting following the election about how he needs to stock up on bullets to defend his food storage since the world is going to collapse…well, I don’t see any bit of Christ reflected through him. I think we should feel a bit uneasy when we are born to better circumstances than others. But the proper response is to be charitable, not invent stories about how they’re suffering from being fence-sitters, or not valiant, or because of Cain’s curse, or whatever. Christ wouldn’t have cared. That’s part of our test. Not to sit on our fortunate high horse, but to use our blessings to help bless others. Not to try and ignore their suffering, but to lower ourselves into it a little bit and try to raise them up.

[wuwei]

My pet peeve is the 5 minute story at the beginning of a talk about what they were doing when they got asked to give the talk and why it was an inconvenience for them followed by a glance back at the bishop… If the speaker doesn’t want to be there why should I care. So out comes the phone.

They talked in eq last week about people looking at phones and not paying attention in sm. I don’t remember what they said because I was on my phone though…

But seriously, reading the scriptures on my phone is the only way to learn something about Jesus some Sundays. Maybe if speakers talked about Jesus and not about themselves… now there’s a novel idea!

[wuwei]

Turinturambar,

I like your name and your picture. Big Tolkein fan.

I think my problem isn’t so much with using thee and thou quite so much as the rote-ness that happens a lot of the time. We are so proud of ourselves for not using vain repetition but we sure are taught to repeat a formula. It seems like we end up with a laundry list of things we always have to give thanks for and ask to be blessed. Although the words aren’t the same exactly each time I still feel like it can be a vain repetition all the same.

I like to have conversations as I pray but a lot more pause in the middle to ponder it. I think we teach “search, ponder, and pray” but I think the searching and pondering belong in the prayer…at least for me.

I love the term “meta-rameumtom”. I’m not sure I will ever be an every week attender again. I feel impressed to go once or twice a month but I also find there are other ways to worship that don’t involve testing my patience and pride quite as much hehe.

Mackay,

I like using thou. I don’t know why… I know it’s the informal version. I think I’ve just talked to God like that for so long I feel weird if I don’t. Like I’m changing my relationship with him. And it’s my relationship with the church that’s changed, not my relationship with God. I view my relationship with the church as so secondary to my relationship with God.

I think I also lament the loss of the formal/informal distinction in English. But I also lament the loss of the subjunctive in English. Linguistics can be fun. It does strike me as odd that the reason we are supposed to use thee and thou is because it’s more respectful when it’s the opposite. I think, for me, there is value in using language that makes my prayer language different from my everyday language. But it’s a personal thing. I think that people should pray however they feel comfortable talking to God. I like what you mentioned about your mission. If it wasn’t for prayers I would never have learned how to use “tu” in Spanish.

I think the bottom line is that there isn’t one way to pray. I can use thou, you can use you, we’re both communicating with God. And if you feel like you’re communicating fine then who is anyone else to tell you it’s wrong. On that note I guess I shouldn’t complain about TBM prayers that I see as repetitive since maybe they’re communicating just fine?

Meta-rameumtom indeed.

[wuwei]

eman wrote:

wuwei wrote:

…Also, it seemed to me the mission was really good at generating sheetsfaith crises in an environment where leaving the church over them was incredibly hard….

Indeed. I had my first real crisis in the mission. Hpwever the mission is a horrible place to work through it. The cogDis was too much. So I threw a sheet over my falling shelf pieces and forgot about it for 8 years…

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 2

Isn’t that the church’s prescription for faith crises though? I think they hope you throw enough sheets over it that you never find it again.

[wuwei]

The “white handbook” definitely keeps growing in length and specificity… I always considered it more of a book of guidelines though. its odd that I’ve been promoted quickly to trainer/supervisor in every job I’ve had but I was junior companion most of my mission. The real world and the church take very different views on “thinking outside the box” I suppose.

Also, it seemed to me the mission was really good at generating faith crises in an environment where leaving the church over them was incredibly hard….

[wuwei]

Although the more I read it the more I realize I had mission companions that could have written that site. Although absurd to many of us here, I think most of these things are still taught on some level. I had companions that believed in a 7000 year old earth, black people as the seed of Cain, polygamy so we could get all the spirits out of pre-mortal life and speed up the second coming, etc. etc. etc.

I get the sense it’s written by someone who believed all of the above and had quite the faith crisis following their mission. Just my feeling though.

It’s hard because I will be eternally grateful I served my mission even if it was the hardest 2 years I could imagine. But if I would have known the truth about what my mission would be before I left then I probably would have never gone. It’s a conundrum…

[wuwei]

church0333 wrote:

On Wensday night I did trainIng for the stake on some of these issues and I thought it went well , but today the SS president pulled me aside and said he does not understand why I worry about these things and we were not there so we can’t know the truth He said I was just trying to push an agenda. Am I trying to do that? Maybe I am. And mybe that’s not my job. It feels right but do I do it just to push my agenda?

Hmm…this really got me thinking about the term “agenda”. I posted in another thread about how I thought people trying for reform were necessary and good.

The other part of your post i liked was where you said it felt right. I think that’s very important.

I’m not an expert on eastern philosophy but I try to learn from it. My name on here is wu wei or “effortless action” (there are multiple translations). But when is comes to striving for change in the church it can seem paradoxical. Trying to change anything seems to involve effort.

But the fact that you said it felt right I think is the key. You feel moved to try and change things… you probably feel more at peace trying to change things than you would just sitting back and going with the flow. I know for me that when I try to conform I feel completely at dis-ease. It leads to feelings of inadequacy and guilt for not living up to others’ expectations. I feel untrue to myself. I know that Jesus says we need to deny ourselves, take up our crosses, and follow Him. I’m not sure we always interpret this correctly. I don’t think it’s a message that we all just need to conform. I think it’s a message that we need to give ourselves over to the spirit and do what we feel called to do by God. Jesus was anything but a conformist. He did what was right, because it was right, and not because anyone told him to.

But anyways… which involves more effort? Being true to how you feel and trying for change, or denying it and keeping quiet?

I think if your motivation is to change the church to better suit what YOU think it should be so that YOU’RE more comfortable, then that is an agenda and probably not desirable. If your motivation is that you feel more in harmony with yourself and the spirit as you try for change, then it’s not really an agenda… you’re just doing what the spirit moves you to do. Which we’re supposed to, right?

On another note,

I think when people make accusatory statements such as what you mentioned it’s because they are a little afraid. They themselves may feel they are not being true to what they feel and have constructed reasons to justify this disharmony. I think the “scaffold” metaphor is a great one. Like has been said, perhaps the scaffolding is needed to support the “building” that is their testimony. I try to respect that because their building might not stand if we take it away. When I lost my scaffolding the building swayed a lot, and a lot of things not nailed down flew out the windows, but I was able to reuse the material from the scaffolding to strengthen the internal supports and now I think it’s stronger than ever.

[wuwei]

Is it bad that even with the misinformation about the church and hidden agenda on that site that I think it’s a more accurate description of a mission than the church itself would teach prospective missionaries?

[wuwei]

Thanks everyone that read and responded! It’s amazing how cathartic writing my story has been… Validation goes a long way. I’ve always felt like a misfit at church. I probably always will but at least I know I’m not the only one!

mackay11 wrote:

DBMormon wrote:

I think this site is the most compassionate place on the web for LDS…. this post exemplifies that

+1

I’m done with other forums but this one for a while. This is the one I leave feeling the most enriched and uplifted. The rest just tend to wind me up (on both sides of the fence).

I agree! That’s why i signed up here. I feel the spirit here. I don’t on the other sites I’ve been to. There isn’t a lot of anti stuff here. It’s constructive, not destructive.

Ilovechrist77 wrote:

I like many people in the church used to use the phrase, “The church is perfect but the people are not.” The funny thing is I don’t hear our prophet or the general authorities say that at all. I don’t use the term any more. I still have a strong testimony of the church and Christ and am still active in the church. I just now believe that the church has all the principles and ordinances we need for our exaltation, but that doesn’t mean that the church teaches all truth that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have.

I agree. Somewhere along the line we’re taught the church is perfect and the BoM is perfect, etc. etc. None of it is really doctine though. It was a real awakening when I realized it wasn’t. Joseph Smith may have called the BoM the “most correct”, but for all we know that just means it’s 46% correct and the Bible is 43% hehe.

BTW I grew up in Vegas and Henderson. I was avoiding telling exactly where I grew up but I’ve realized my intro was detailed enough that if anyone that knows me reads it they’ll know it’s me anyways. It’s an interesting place to grown up as a member of the church, that’s for sure…

[wuwei]

I have seen charts of monthly home teaching percentages over a 3 year period brought out during elders quorum to demonstrate which months had the worst %…

[wuwei]

I think this is one of the most enlightened sounding statements I’ve read from the FP. I wish is was more well-known. I decided to put this on my wall next to some other Church statements and since I’m OCD about consistency I formatted it.

I also decided to share in case anyone is interested.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5kkhkA63ezDakl2emRoVmZhRU0/edit

[wuwei]

I’m going to try and not write a novel here but I’ve been pondering this for a bit…

Something that I noticed on my mission was how little the members in those wards cared, on average, what people wore to chruch. I always tried to teach investigators that while many people dressed up, it was more important to be at church. It’s supposed to be a worship service, not a fashion show.

There were two instances that i fondly remember. Once we had an investigator who worked as a painter take off a couple hours saturday afternoon to attend for the first time. He showed up at church wearing jeans with pain on them and a t-shirt with holes in it. Not a single person that I overhead said anything bad about him and many members came over afterwards and introduced themselves and said how happy they were to have him there. He felt so welcomed that he came back again and again and eventually chose to be baptized.

On another occasion there was a sister getting baptized into the college ward that showed up at her baptism in a (very) miniskirt. No one said anything to her about it. She was baptized, everyone congratulated her and it was a great day. Later on she decided on her own that the miniskirt probably wasn’t appropriate and asked us about it. We tried to help her not feel guilty. Turns out the miniskirt was the nicest thing she owned and she wore it specifically because she wanted to dress nice for her baptism to show respect. So her heart had been in the right place. I’m so grateful nobody ruined that day for her.

Back home in Utah after my mission I had a totally different experience. For those that didn’t read my introduction my dad suffers from mental illness. Church attendance is hard for him. One of the problems is that putting on a shirt and tie triggers emotions from his past job that largely caused his mental breakdown. It’s hard for him to feel the spirit when he’s reliving a past hell. So I encouraged him to just wear something nice because God didn’t really care. Well, God might not have but everyone in the ward sure did. My dad enjoyed sacrament meeting for the first time in a long time only to suffer very backhanded compliments like “you’re looking nice” (with a nice thick sarcasm) and such afterwards. They took a day that was happy and did all they could to ruin it…

I think that the church does well teaching principles like I tried to on my mission such as “dress in a way that you feel you are respecting god” and not teaching applications like “god wants you to wear a white shirt and tie”. I argue that not once in Jesus’ perfect life did he ever wear a button-up white shirt, tie, slacks, and wingtips. He wore a robe and sandals, probably had long hair, mustache and beard, and was probably dirty from walking everywhere.

Makes me wonder if Jesus showed up one Sunday if He’d be allowed into the chapel of his own church. :silent:

Anyways, I’ve kind of hijacked a thread about women’s issues but I think the idea behind it is the same. Comments like Sis. Dalton’s, however she intended them, reinforce the cultural idea that individuality is a sin.

I think that efforts like wear pants to church day or trying to get a woman to pray in GC are necessary. How many people quietly leave the church over these issues never to return? By not leaving over these issues, and by pointing them out while reaffirming belief in the gospel, I think we can help rid the church of false traditions that aren’t part of the restored gospel.

We need to stop hiding the light of the gospel beneath a bush of outdated, non-scriptural, judgmental, unchristian cultural mores.

[wuwei]

I just registered today so I’m new at this. But I know exactly what living with someone with bipolar disorder is so I felt I needed to respond. My father has schizo-effective disorder (bipolar + schizophrenia) and it was a challenge my whole life growing up. He’s more or less stable now, but growing up I had 2 dads. The nice caring best friend, and the yelling, swearing, abusive man that I was so scared of. As I got older I learned to enjoy the time with good dad and hide from bad dad.

But my story isn’t really about me, its my mom. Through all of this, my mom remained dedicated. It was many hard years to get to this point. The promising young man she married changed into something else entirely. Her life would never be what she thought it would be. But the the older I get, the more I see my mom as such a great example. She never gave up on my dad. She learned to enjoy the times he was stable and survive the times he wasn’t. But a big part was my dad’s willingness to seek help. Through my mom’s dedication and my dad’s therapy he’s now stable. The bad dad of my childhood doesn’t exist. But neither really does the good dad… He’s grown into a new person and really is my best friend next to my wife. I’m grateful my mom was strong. She went back to school and was a great example of a diligent student. She became the breadwinner and became an example of hard work.

What does this have to do with God? I don’t know. I know my mom was strengthened by her belief that he won’t be like that after this life. I know she has had to accept a different life than she thought but that her new life has become just as fulfilling as the other one. It has allowed her to experience life as an stay at home mom and as the breadwinner with a stay at home husband. Her work has fulfilled her in new ways. So through dealing with my father’s illness she has grown. I’m sure she has complained to god many times. But she never just gave up.

I don’t want to give advice because I really can’t. But that’s my story. I hope something in it is useful. If nothing else. You aren’t alone. There are lots of families dealing with mental illness. Im the product of one and I like to think I turned out ok. Each one’s a little different.

I guess something I’ve learned is to worry about what you can change, not what you can’t. I’ll just leave it at that. Hope you can find some peace!

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