[ydeve]

DarkJedi wrote:

But, kids do go off the rails there as well, and there is a LOT (a LOT) of guilt inducing stuff there. It’s not right for every kid.

So true. There are things in the culture here that can be harmful for *some* kids, regardless of their activity.

DarkJedi wrote:

I don’t think BYU “cures” kids who are already on their own divergent paths.

BYU doesn’t keep kids active. It does, however, make things rather horrible for those that do go inactive. My sister graduated from BYU and is now ex-mormon. One of the major factors in the anger she feels towards the church is the way BYU administration effectively expels those who go inactive or leave, and the double life that made her live. She had depression and was, at times, suicidal in her last year here.

[ydeve]

We still used a sign-up sheet in my BYU student ward. If there’s some new policy, we didn’t get the message here in Provo.

[ydeve]

There is a scripture that directly contradicts, talking about spiritual gifts and how for some it is given to believe on others’ words. it’s probably not helpful to share it right then as a rebuttal, though.

[ydeve]

Also, if you’re looking for a LGBT student support group, there’s USGA at BYU. I haven’t been myself, as I work during the time they hold meetings, but I’ve seen/heard good things.

[ydeve]

Hey, another LGBTQ BYU student! My experience has been rather different than yours. I feel the same attraction to people without regards to their gender, and I’ve found that, for me, they are very much equivalent to what straight people experience. Do be aware that there are heterosexuals who feel dirty and unworthy about their sexual attraction, so that isn’t unique to being LGBT. Culture and our own experiences affect our perceptions of sexual attraction. There is nothing inherently dirty about being attracted to people of the opposite gender.

Syme wrote:

I thought “I’m already an introvert, I’m terrible with kids, so this is a blessing in disguise ”

This I do get. It takes time for me to warm up to people. The idea of dating is rather scary. There’s no need to rush into relationships with others, but life gets pretty dark when you’re alone most of the time.

Yes, the church has no helpful resources for LGBTQ members. They mostly reinforce the unhealthy idea that we’re given a terrible “trial” or mentally ill.

Syme wrote:

With a lack of any testimony about anything, and with attractions that had no answers, I prayed. At first I wanted to know everything, but had no answers. Then I simplified it down to: “God, I just want to know if you exist. That’s all I’m asking”.

Silence.

Personally, I’ve found prayers about God’s existence to be generally unhelpful. The spiritual experiences I’ve had can all be written off as powerful emotional experiences or coming to conclusions on my own, and it wouldn’t be wrong. But it doesn’t mean that they aren’t meaningful or didn’t affect me, since they did and were.

Best of luck on your journey. Live life authentically, wherever it takes you. Don’t see yourself as dirty or unworthy, since you didn’t start that way and don’t need to live that way. And make sure not to confuse what is a good, natural, inherent part of you for something that is dirty and wrong.

[ydeve]

I’ve found that pretty much all of what people call “revelation” can be explained away as normal decision making, emotional responses, being observant, etc. To me, this doesn’t mean that “revelation” isn’t meaningful, but that it isn’t useful for proving the existence of God. Or rather, I stopped worrying about “knowing” if the things we are taught in church are true (I think that we can’t really “know”) and just focused on living my life in accordance to gospel principles.

The God I see basically hopes we use all the resources we have and make the best out of life, but doesn’t really intervene much. And then if there is intervention, there’s really no way to tell it apart from luck or other people being nice. I’ve come to the conclusion that if there’s no way to tell, then the question is academic and it shouldn’t affect how I act. Whether or not a blessing is good luck or from God, I can still be grateful. Whether or not it’s helping me get to heaven, the gospel helps me live a more fulfilling life.

Yes there are things that the gospel won’t solve. I also had undiagnosed ADHD until a year ago, and “pray and try harder” had been completely useless as a solution, nor did it take away the depression that came from feeling worthless and being unable to perform well in classes. Just because it isn’t a silver bullet doesn’t make it useless, but it means we need to learn where it applies. This is actually a good thing to teach the youth, that prayer doesn’t fix everything. Seek outside help when trying to fix problems.

Personally, I chose to believe, partly because things seem slightly nicer that way, and partly because I’ve found meaning in the ritualistic things we do in the church, like prayer, priesthood ordinances, etc. (Funny that, finding God to be non-intervening and being unable to prove to myself of his existence, yet finding power in rituals.) But I’m not sure that that matters much in my ability to bear an authentic testimony. I can testify of gospel teachings that have a positive effect. I can testify of being non-judgmental and loving others. Take away all the mysticism of deity, and the gospel itself as a way of life is still valuable. And it’s really the non-mystical side of the gospel that will help the youth live a fulfilling life.

[ydeve]

Possibly useful quote:

President Hinkley quoted Jenkins Lloyd Jones in a Single Adult address in 1996:

Quote:

“Life is like an old-time rail journey—delays, sidetracks, smoke, dust, cinders and jolts, interspersed only occasionally by beautiful vistas and thrilling bursts of speed.

“The trick is to thank the Lord for letting you have the ride”

In the GC talk, Nelson said

Quote:

Anything that opposes Christ or His doctrine will interrupt our joy.

This could be used to prompt a discussion about what the gospel actually is and what about it actually brings joy. You can even talk about how things in the church that may seem “good” can fall under this category under certain circumstances (good, better, best), and how we need to use wisdom and listen to the Spirit.

[ydeve]

Jerseygirl wrote:

Also, the “Men are that they might have joy” scripture puts a lot of pressure on TBM’s to show how happy they are. The scripture has always been an enigma to me, which is a problem because I have to give a lesson in RS based on it in just a couple weeks. Anyone have ideas on how to give lessons when you are no longer a TBM? I worry that I am going to blurt out something shocking and out myself.

I teach temple prep in my student ward, and I focus on the parts that are actually part of the gospel and leave out the sections about church culture or prosperity teachings. For example, when discussing the law of consecration, we didn’t talk about giving everything to the church or always accepting callings, but rather consecrating what we have to helping those around us, the church just being one vehicle we can use to do so.

The way I view the “men are that they might have joy” scripture is that the gospel is supposed to help us live a more fulfilling life. In a way, it’s saying the same thing as when Christ taught us how to differentiate helpful from unhelpful teachings: “by their fruits ye shall know them”. Or when Moroni says that all good things come from god. That we are to seek after health and fulfillment, and that we can compare other people’s teachings or our own actions against that standard to see where they stand.

[ydeve]

It’s not possible to “catch the gay”. There is no such thing as being “on-the-fence gay”. Sexual orientation is neither a choice nor a disease. It makes as much sense to “worry” that the straight scout would turn the gay scout straight as it does the other way around.

To clarify, having a non-straight orientation is completely natural. It seems reasonable that non-straight people might be more likely to have non-straight kids (though don’t quote me on that), but straight parents have gay, bi, or asexual kids all the time.

[ydeve]

The site doesn’t focus exclusively on LG though. They have a bisexual story mixed in. They don’t want to conflate non-cisgender with non-straight, but they conflate different non-straight orientations into the same “SSA” term.

[ydeve]

Also, it’s nice that they shared a bisexual’s experience, but insisting on lumping everyone into the same “SSA” label unhelpfully gives the impression that bisexuals are really just gays.

[ydeve]

Or the more wordy: “Disbelieving foreign ideas because you’re already certain” is the opposite of faith.

[ydeve]

I also have a hard time seeing this as an open, adult conversation about what it means to be LGB in the church. The “conversation” is very one-sided. In the stories I’ve skimmed, I’ve mostly seen the experiences of TBMs who know the Church is true and have come to the conclusion that they need to be celibate or enter into mixed orientation marriages. Even in the case of the bisexual guy, being LGB is still painted as a negative, shameful thing.

And this brings me to my main frustration with both the Church and it’s leaders with regards to what they insist on calling SSA. The Church sees that we’re hurting. That’s great, but they seem to completely misunderstand *why* we are hurting, implicitly passing it off as a result of being LGB. We’re not suffering because we aren’t straight. We’re suffering because we’ve been taught that not being straight is sinful/shameful and that it’s a trial akin to mental illness, and even after we get over that we have to deal with membership and leaders continually insisting that we’re diseased. And this website continues to feed into the same problem. It really makes no difference for them to say “SSA isn’t a disease” when they use the word like a disease and only give examples that show that LGB members are mentally ill in one form or another.

Also, there’s a reason I’ve been using “LGB” instead of “LGBTQ”. The website isn’t about being queer; it’s about “having” SSA while being a TBM.

I know, baby steps and all. But it really doesn’t feel like the leadership cares.

(sorry for the rant)

[ydeve]

I actually really like the story of Nephi killing Laban, because it teaches very clearly that life is complex, it isn’t black and white. I suspect that we don’t fully understand the importance of the brass plates to Nephi and his family, but we can understand that Nephi was up against a wall. Two things that were both absolutely uncompromisable for him were on the block, and one of them had to give. Would it have been right for you to kill Laban? Would it have been right for me to kill Laban? The answer is clearly no. But then, we aren’t Nephi. We aren’t in his shoes. And we really can’t judge him.

Who are we to judge people who feel like God is directing them away from the church? Or gays who often must choose between suicide and what they’ve been taught is the only path to the Celestial Kingdom? Or the investigator who desires with all their heart to get a confirmation that the church is true, only to get the answer no? Yes, we’ve gotten different answers from God than they did, but we really can’t judge other people’s decisions; we are not the eternal Judge. I suspect that more often than not, when me make judgements about other people’s decisions, we are judging incorrectly.

However, there is a judgement that we can and need to make. And that is, “What am I going to do and who am I going to listen to?” We work out our own salvation before God with fear and trembling. It doesn’t mean that people who come to a different answer than us are wrong; it means that we are different.

Yes, personal revelation trumps scripture. If it never did, then it would be meaningless. We’d all just follow the prophet, who can never go wrong. But a cursory glance at history shows that that clearly isn’t the case. And yes, this is dangerous. It means that we need to be very careful to not be led astray, whether by other people or our own thoughts. The Lord has provided numerous signposts of various importance. In no particular order, we have the advice of parents, of church leaders, the written scriptures, our own righteous desires, the two great commandments, etc. They are all very useful, but they don’t always agree with each other. It is our job to resolve the conflicts.

And whichever choice we make, there will always be many people out there who are certain that we’re abandoning God.

[ydeve]

Quote:

1) Does staying in the church, whatever our reasons, make us complicit in the harm done to LGBT, women, etc.?

On the contrary, we need understanding people who remain active in their wards and branches. Being LGBT, especially when you’re still coming to terms with your sexuality, it can be very easy to internalize negative messages from church, and it helps to hear someone speak up when TBMs say hurtful things. And even after you’ve come to terms with who you are, it helps to know that you’re not alone, that there are people who care and don’t see you as diseased.

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