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Heber13 wrote:
the Gospel of Jesus Christ (if we can find out what that is separate and apart from church itself) is exactly the very thing that leads to complete and total happiness.
Heber, I think you and SD are using different definitions of the word gospel. If you’ve defined the gospel to be the path that leads one to happiness, of course you’re happy living the gospel. It’s a tautology. However, if your definition of the gospel is the doctrine of the church, or even just what the GA would call core gospel principles it’s hardly surprising if living the gospel does not lead to happiness.
This probably isn’t what you want to hear, but you might have to choose between having your son resent church and letting him attend fewer hours of it. Obviously this depends on the reasons your son wants to attend fewer hours of church, but for me, church has been a much better experience after cutting down the number of meetings I attend. Not just because of what is often said in those meetings, but also because church is honestly too long. Sometimes there isn’t a way to convince or force yourself to have a net positive experience with something, let alone someone else. To be honest, in my experience, most Christians are bigoted. They just don’t recognize it as such because it is less extreme than what they typically associate with the word. Misogyny and homophobia are widespread in Christianity. Many of us view these as more condemning flaws than older people do. Just because you don’t throw slurs at me does not make you not homophobic. You don’t have to be as misogynistic as Trump for church to not be a place I want to raise a family. If I can have the benefits of spirituality without all these harmful ideologies, why should I go to church? I mean, there’s a reason that the vast majority of queer people, including those who grew up in religious families, aren’t religious. And it’s not because of hate groups like the Westborough Baptist Church. It’s because of personal experience with a bigoted, toxic environment. Actually accepting and affirming churches are in the minority.
DarkJedi wrote:
It’s an incomplete statistic, though. Worldwide only about 35% of all members are active, with higher rates in Utah and much lower rates in SA and Europe. So is this 30% just reflective of the norm for all members? If that’s the case, it not news or significant. What would make the stat worthwhile is if it were broken down compared to other age groups, geographic location, and covert as compared to BIC.
The real problem is that it doesn’t differentiate between children of record and converts. A fair number of ysa didn’t grow up in the church.
Assuming we’re just looking at rough estimates. You can see that the ysa activity rate is lower than the general membership. How much lower, not so much.
dande48 wrote:
nibbler wrote:
” As if by reflex I said, “[expletive deleted] this!” stood up, walked out of the meeting, and went home.
Haha, you’ve done what I’ve felt like doing on so many occasions. God bless you, Nibbler!
I highly recommend this. If church is going to be a negative experience that day, go do something else.
SilentDawning wrote:
I’d like to see our own retention numbers compared with the general numbers quoted in the study in the opening post…
According to mormonleaks, in 2008 the church’s activity rate for ysa in North America was 30%.
I identify with this excerpt so much. To be honest, I see the lds church’s rejection of the consumer driven model, or emphasis of “truth” and downplay of “contributing to wellbeing” as greatly increasing the harm it causes. bridget_night wrote:
Can it be a mixed bag; part true/ part false?
Reuben wrote:
ydeve wrote:
The biggest problem with the system is what happens to the people who cannot live authentically according to said system’s rules.Because the system depends on *everybody* agreeing on certain tenets, the misfit’s attempts to live life in a way that brings them peace is seen as an attack on the group as a whole.Even a nonmember is seen in the same way, especially if said tenet is seen as especially fundamental. And the resulting backlash can really screw people up.
Do you think this is why the Church feels so persecuted by “the LGBT agenda”?
When it comes to homophobia, I think this is just part of a larger picture. I see homophobia and misogyny as having the same roots. Confirmation bias builds on an innate desire to consider one better than others, and a “ruling class” begins to discriminate against those outside of it. This superiority becomes part of their world view. So when a “minority group” (in the case of misogyny, are women really a minority?) Begins to seek after equal treatment, it threatens both their world view and their sense of self worth, both of which are deeply disturbing.
Thank you Reuben. That’s what I wanted to say but had trouble putting into words. The biggest problem with the system is what happens to the people who cannot live authentically according to said system’s rules. Because the system depends on *everybody* agreeing on certain tenets, the misfit’s attempts to live life in a way that brings them peace is seen as an attack on the group as a whole. Even a nonmember is seen in the same way, especially if said tenet is seen as especially fundamental. And the resulting backlash can really screw people up.
This is where you get so many exmos who are so angry and bitter towards the church. People they feel should be able to be counted on for love and support instead turn against them when they are most vulnerable. Because their world is built on the system being correct, members become incapable of truly loving those who cannot exist within it.
I think the truth claims of the church may be the root of all the abuse it has and continues to dish out.
SilentDawning wrote:
Have you ever experienced spiritual support in your current path, even though it’s not orthodox? And has your new path yet produced the happiness that tends to breed spirituality?
Yes, and yes.
It’s also leading to me to resent more and more the school I attend. I just have to survive one more year…
I’d like to re-echo what SD said. I couldn’t give a talk on obedience to commandments. There are church commandments that run contrary to my conscience, and I’d be disregarding very sacred experiences if I were to follow them the rest of my life. But integrity, authentic living, and following your conscience is close enough to the topic of obedience that you could talk about that instead and no one, including the person who assigned you to speak, would raise an eyebrow. DoubtingTom wrote:
dande48 wrote:
… “The cold never bothered me anyway.”
NOOOOOO! I finally got that song out of my head after three years of non-stop insanity! And it’s coming back!!
To be fair, it’s a very powerful song.
I didn’t get that impression. It seems to me like a lot of TBMs take being critical of church leaders as going to war. I see a huge difference between the two. Criticism is nowhere near trying to tear down an organization. DevilsAdvocate wrote:
DoubtingTom wrote:
– have they left the church completely now? Did this forum help with that transition or just make the whole process drawn out and more painful? Is it better sometimes to just rip the band-aid off when you sincerely think getting rid of the band-aid once and for all may help you to be your best self?[/b]If anything I think it has generally made people more comfortable with whatever decisions they end up making so that if they leave or stay it can be on their terms more than feeling too much pressure that they need to leave or stay if they don’t really want to at the time.
I think DA’s comment here nails it. When my shelf broke, it was a lifesaver to find this forum. Most forums are full of appologetics, black and white thinking, and strawmen, but staylds avoids most of that. I had too much that I valued in my religious experiences to just rip the bandaid off, and this forum helped me to sort through it all. Yes, the final result is still me leaving, but I’ve been able to keep what I valued about my faith.
